I don't live in China. Yet I'd very much like my country having its own national software stack (OS, search engine, browser, social media apps). All is fine for you guys in the US, but you forget when our national interests conflict with yours or big tech corporations or when the privacy of our citizens is concerned, it happens to be a national security issue. I trust my own government to not spy on me unnecessarily, and even if I'm to be spied by someone, I'd prefer my own government who is far more likely to act in my best interests than the three letter agencies of US.
I don’t disagree with this, but it would be better to have a stack that’s not controlled by any government but is based on technical standards - not governmental dictates or corporate control.
I would also note that in your country the US agencies have no authority. However your own government can use that information to imprison you or otherwise exert its jurisdictional control. I think that’s generally what people worry about. It’s hard to imagine a reason the US government would care about you as a citizen of X country, whereas there are lots of governments who oppress their citizens for being themselves and for who they associate with.
> it would be better to have a stack that’s not controlled by any government but is based on technical standards
That era of globalization is slowly passing away.
> I would also note that in your country the US agencies have no authority.
No it plenty does. Not well-known on the west side of the internet, but the US can and did easily order to our governments the individuals (which she saw to be influential in the directions she didn't want) to be imprisoned, tortured and executed. And this is just cost-effective side of the coin. Three letter agencies can make anyone disappear. I just searched for almost 25 mins for an article documenting such a case. I was able to find it several times in the past with increasing difficulty. It's not even on the webarchive now. I think the article is finally nuked by some agency.
> there are lots of governments who oppress their citizens for being themselves and for who they associate with.
Not everyone agrees with the idea that individual freedom extremism is good, or that everyone should be allowed to do or say anything as long as it doesn't adversely affect others. In fact in this side of the world we think that's a silly and naive standpoint.
It’s only passing away if people let it. However, I’d note that it’s only passing away in a small number of authoritarian regimes, and technical standards dominate the stack for the parts of the world who value openness. I don’t think this is a “west vs east” thing, but a valuing of open societies.
I think people in many parts of the world would like to see the “others” oppressed - until tides change and they find themselves the “others.”
Once you allow someone to decide some thoughts are a crime because they agree with your views, it’s just a matter of time before that prison is open to your way of thinking.
On the CIA and extraordinary rendition and other things, yes I know it exists. My point isn’t that. My point is that your government does it a lot more and the likelihood of being snatched up by your government (wherever you are) is absurdly higher than the US breaking into your home and extracting you. That it happens is unacceptable but it’s also structurally rare to the point it’s news worthy.
I for one feel sorry for people who are imprisoned for no other reason for the people they love, the ideas they have, the way they view the world. I will welcome them to my side of the world with open arms and wish them peace, and mourn the loss of their home to people who feel they must hurt people for being alive.
Edit: I literally found the article from my childhood project of replicating the website of the article, sitting in Google Drive trash, awaiting the 30days deletion. I searched for the exact title and indeed the article is nuked from the entire internet including webarchive except mere links on FB and Twitter. Three letter guys caught red handed. Here's the data of the article: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1wjPH5hN-uyATlO7K3Ynz...
Open the metin.txt for article. veri.json is metadata, 'baslik' means title. I hope my google account will not be burned over this.
I agree, this is egregious. At least I’m allowed to say that and advocate strongly against such stuff without fear of reprisal. In many parts of the world I wouldn’t be allowed to criticize the government. (In fact I’m vacationing in one right now)
Edit: I think the fact that typing his name into a browser provided me not just Wikipedia but hundreds of websites advocating on his behalf, but you couldn’t find an article after 25 minutes of searching and fear you’ll be in some sort of trouble for having it in your Google drive exemplifies my point. An open internet isn’t just a tool for evil by the deranged. It’s how the good and the just know the truth.
Edit 2: by the way, thank you for the respectful discussion here, we don’t all have to agree on things but it’s wonderful to discuss with folks that aren’t part of the echo chamber.
Yeah, the case is on wikipedia but the original article from muslimskeptic.com is gone. I found the article last time from webarchive, the article is gone from there too. I appreciate you as well.
> if I'm to be spied by someone, I'd prefer my own government who is far more likely to act in my best interests than the three letter agencies of US.
I'm also aware of an opposite opinion: if I'm to be spied by someone, it's better to be a three letter agency overseas, since it's much harder for them to harm me, than a three letter agency in my home country, which can just knock at my door.
And thanks for the comment. Indeed, I was thinking about countries like Russia, where US three-letter agencies don't have extradition power, as far as I know (thinking about Snowden). Countries like mentioned in that thread, indeed, have more complicated relationships with US.
Tech nerds often don't realize how much the world of software is subject to the real world. You can be cut off access to any technology if your country is not willing to give its natural resources to another. No different from trade sanctions. Open source is a bunch of individuals helpless in the face of orders from Pentagon to close it all up.
* You won't have the expertise to quickly build your own solutions when this happens you are cut off access to a certain technology. A browser is a beast to implement as we all know.
* You can't trust that e.g. Chromium as audited by American "experts" is really not phoning home if it detects the IP is from e.g Turkish defense corporation A's RD center.
* You need to have that software-skilled workforce anyway to ensure technological progress of your country.
I fully agree with you. Digital sovereignty is important for countries and it makes sense that they are trying to become digitally independent. The bad part is that this particular instance, it will be used against the people.
I would say that better goal would be for individuals to be digitally sovereign, and not countries. Individual digital sovereignty protects us from external and internal oppression.
I'm afraid that's technically not possible. Internet is inherently centralized due to the need for ISPs, and there are TLS CAs, TSMC, and many more things. Current sophistication of technology needs centralization for its manufacture and use.
But are you going to block the US/Europe on your national network so that your citizens live in a silo. Are you afraid of free flow of information or of your citizens seeing it? That's what Russia, China, and North Korea do, is that what you want in your country?
I don't directly propose blocking the rest of the world, but e.g. using a national social media app implies banning foreign ones. I'd very much like the personal data and the advertising income mined from the eyeball time of citizens to not cross the borders of my country. This is not to mention a state-run app would have just enough ads to pay for the costs of the service, and maybe even none if it's ruled in the parliament that advertisement is harmful to the wellbeing of citizens.
> Yet I'd very much like my country having its own national software stack
The question is would you take that at the expense of blocking the big American corporations? That's probably really how the Chinese have developed their own to this degree. For example they weren't ubiquitous but Google was starting to make headway in China and Chinese in the late 00s when gmail hack/Google ban/GFW started. Baidu is not a quality service (though maybe because of government restrictions)
If the CIA/NSA spies on you what would a plausible bad outcome look like?
If the Chinese government spies on you and finds some behavior it finds unacceptable your social credit tanks and you cant travel, send your children to a good school....
