To me this is like saying: You don't have the freedom to be a slave, therefore your system isn't really free.

You're using mental gymnastics to attack the alternative framework so that you could avoid thinking about hard problems.

No sane person believes that having option to sell your labor without taking risks is slavery.

If anything, slavery is being forced to be paid in the proceeds of a futile endeavor instead of just being paid how much you think you're worth.

People have different life circumstances and preferences, so naturally they want different risk options. Having better control over your risks is an indisputable benefit of capitalism.

Apparently, socialism ignores this benefit by assuming that people are robots that don't actually have different circumstances and preferences.

No sane person thinks that the current system is exploitative? No sane person thinks that it takes advantage about a power differential due to who has the capital (land, factory etc.)? I guess I know a lot of insane people.

How many people really get paid how much they think they are worth under the current system? Not many I know.

How much does the person with the capital risk compared to the employee who might lose their home with the loss of their livelihood? Do most employees really believe that they have a rational and fair choice of the risks they enter into? (including the risk of surviving on a low income)

I guess I'm not meeting these swathes of workers completely satisfied with their wages, risks, and the system they live in.

I know plenty of Socialists who believe in different benefits for different levels of effort or danger, especially as in Capitalism most of those people are the most poorly paid at present.

> No sane person thinks that the current system is exploitative?

You're misrepresenting what I said in order to produce a cliché leftie rant.

I never said current system is not exploitative (though I have no idea what this loaded term means: what is the measure and threshold for exploitation in the system that makes it exploitative? Was Gulag exploitative?).

What I said is having an option to get paid for your job without taking on risks is obviously not slavery.

> I guess I'm not meeting these swathes of workers completely satisfied with their wages, risks, and the system they live in.

Another boring strawman. I never said there are "swathes of workers completely satisfied with their wages". Nobody should be completely satisfied with anything, otherwise there will be no progress.

But we can judge the satisfaction with different systems based on immigration flow. Throughout human history, we have witnessed plenty of people wanting to immigrate from socialistic states to capitalistic ones. In the opposite direction - not so much.

"obviously not slavery"

It is admittedly not traditional chattel slavery but I happen to agree with Frederick Douglas that, "there may be a wages of slavery only a little less galling and crushing in its effects than chattel slavery, and that this slavery of wages must go down with the other." Which was a sentiment echoed by Abraham Lincoln.

I'm pretty lucky with my profession, but many many people feel coerced into a narrow range of job options, alienated from their work, and robbed of a significant part of the value they produce.

Note: In most first world countries in the world outside of America losing a job or ill health does not lead to potentially losing a home, or no longer having access to medicine or care. America is quite unique in that regard, and more similar to third world countries.

As for the "Gulag" America has a larger proportion in prison than Russia (or China) ever has (and I am far from a fan of those authoritarian countries).

"immigrate from socialistic states to capitalistic ones"

Most mass immigration is coming from people fleeing dictatorships and / or poor third world and often war-torn countries which are far from Socialist. In fact they are often capitalist dictatorships supported by America (sometimes with previous left-leaning democratic governments overthrown by America).

It is true that many of them migrate to the relative peace of places like America, but great numbers also migrate to neighbouring more left-wing countries in places like Africa and South America.

Although I don't consider China or Soviet Russia any more Socialist than most European countries which have Socialist inspired social programmes, there have been major mass migrations into Soviet Russia in the past (even from Americans during the Great Depression) and into China in more recent times (economic migrants from Africa especially). As for European countries with Socialist policies: they have millions of migrants per year, some as refugees, but many drawn by their "Social Democratic" ideals.

> many many people feel coerced into a narrow range of job options

And many many people will feel that way under socialism because, for example, any form of freelancing is typically forbidden. Would you consider "he who does not work, neither shall he eat" a form of coercion?

> robbed of a significant part of the value they produce

So I joined a startup, but it failed in a few years. Apparently I created negative value and still got paid for it, therefore I robbed someone. Then I joined another startup, and it succeeded. This time someone robbed me. How exactly does socialism solve this weird robbery cycle? Ah yes, there are no startups in socialism. You can't be robbed if you have no wealth.

Maybe it's time for lefties to stop viewing every business interaction as "robbing", every salary as "slavery", every cheesy comment as "rape" and every disagreement as "genocide"?

> As for the "Gulag" America has a larger proportion in prison than Russia

Whataboutism isn't productive, America is not the only capitalistic country in the world. Also comparing US prisons to Gulag is laughable.

> Most mass immigration is coming from people fleeing dictatorships and / or poor third world and often war-torn countries which are far from Socialist

Here comes No True Scotsman. Isn't it a funny coincidence, that socialism and dictatorship usually go hand in hand? And what are the examples of countries that are close to Socialist?

> European countries with Socialist policies

What an obscure way to say "capitalistic". You do realize that none of them are even considering abolishing private ownership? And didn't you just say that Russia and China are far from Socialist? Well, those European countries are even further.

> many people feel that way under socialism

Assuming this is true then we have two economic systems in which people feel limited in their opportunities - albeit in different situations and for different reasons: the capitalist one by prioritising roles that have value to those with capital (corporations etc.), and the Socialist one by prioritising value to the community. I suppose it is a question then of where we individually find greater personal value and what fits in with our values.

> Would you consider "he who does not work, neither shall he eat" a form of coercion?

I would consider it a form of coercion, because artificially restricting access to food when it is plentiful is intentional cruelty. "Serve me or starve" is an abusive relationship. Where there is safety net - at least to the basics needed for life - people can make more rational choices, and hold out for better choices.

Note: This aphorism attributed to St. Paul seems to be diametrically opposed to the rest of the Bible, especially the teachings of Jesus as well as to basic human decency, and is one (of the dozens of) reasons I think Christians should reject Paul as an authentic apostle (as Jefferson, Shaw, Tolstoy, Ghandi, Kierkegaard & Sagan did).

> any form of freelancing is typically forbidden

I suppose this is question of what you mean by freelancing. There are always highly skills craftsman and experts in very specific fields whose work isn't limited to one workplace etc. But who is forbidding it? Are you mistaking Socialism for the authoritarian Soviet system?

> Apparently I created negative value and still got paid for it, therefore I robbed someone.

Value is very subjective in Capitalism. Luxuries may be cheaper than essentials (television vs house), some eccentric professions are valued far more highly than those necessary for human survival.

But a worker is almost always in a far more precarious position than an owner.

> there are no startups in socialism

Really? I see Socialism as the possibility for all sorts of start ups that would provide human benefit that no share holder looking for a profit would ever invest in, but would enrich humanity greatly.

> Maybe it's time for lefties to stop viewing every business interaction as "robbing", every salary as "slavery", every cheesy comment as "rape" and every disagreement as "genocide"?

If one has the basic assumption that value is created by the worker and that capitalism is taking that value unethically then robbing seems an appropriate word for it, likewise a system in which a worker's choices of employment and the wages from it are limited artificially to support this system then people may feel like serfs (although it could be argued that serfs had more capital and a higher return on their labour - at least in England after the Black Death when they were in a better bargaining position).

Who is saying cheesy comments are rape though? Who sees disagreements as genocide? Did those disagreements lead to actual deaths?

> comparing US prisons to Gulag is laughable.

As someone with family in the US prison I have become very familiar with its human rights abuses, which would not be tolerated in any other European country.

> Isn't it a funny coincidence, that socialism and dictatorship usually go hand in hand

I guess I wasn't clear. I was talking about capitalist dictatorships that people wish to escape from. See Pinochet's Chile, Putin's Russia, Orbán's Hungary, Erdoğan's Turkey for examples.

> What an obscure way to say "capitalistic".

As the meme goes - Socialism never works! But Norway is Socialist and they are doing great. They're not Socialist - they are Capitalist! The lets adopt their policies. No, that's Socialism!

These countries are Socialist when a Capitalist wants to criticise them and Capitalist when a Capitalist wants to praise or excuse them.

It is true that they are not wholly Socialist. They are "Social Democratic" (what Bernie Sanders calls "Democratic Socialism") But Socialist parties seeking to implement Socialist-inspired principles were the ones who usually introduced universal* healthcare, pensions, housing, vacations etc. This is because the concept of decommodification is integral to production for use and need (rather than profit). It is an underlying assumption about the worth of people that motivates the worker led, owned and shared workplace.

*free at the point of delivery for lower taxation by shared liability (public insurance)

> You do realize that none of them are even considering abolishing private ownership?

The abolishment of private property is Communist - not Socialist. Now, some Socialists are in favour of it, and most Communists (at least those who fit Marx's stateless, classless, moneyless definition) are Socialists too. Some of these European governments have a great deal of social housing, public land, public utilities etc. that was - at least in part - seen as progress toward minimising the negative effects of (rent seeking) private property and working toward it's elimination, but as I said that isn't strictly Socialism in itself.

> the capitalist one by prioritising roles that have value to those with capital (corporations etc.), and the Socialist one by prioritising value to the community

In the modern world, capital is typically created by providing value to community. There are exceptions, of course, but nobody will defend those exceptions (i.e. inheriting wealth or committing crimes obviously doesn't provide value).

The problem with socialists is that nobody knows what is the "value to community" and how to measure it, yet everybody has a strong opinion on it. That's why socialists are typically dictators: you need the arrogance to think that you know what is better for community than the community itself.

> There are always highly skills craftsman and experts in very specific fields whose work isn't limited to one workplace etc. But who is forbidding it?

Socialism. There's plenty of debate on self-employment in socialism, and socialists always settle on one of two points: either self-employment is strictly forbidden, or it is only allowed if we have some regulations protecting workers (but those could be implemented in capitalism too, which makes socialism pointless).

> Value is very subjective in Capitalism

Value is subjective by it's nature, and capitalism recognizes that. I'm not interested in debating the downsides of labor theory of value which offers "objective" measurements - the only people supporting it are zealots.

> I see Socialism as the possibility for all sorts of start ups

You seem to blissfully ignore the challenges socialism imposes on start ups. To begin with: who provides the capital?

> These countries are Socialist when a Capitalist wants to criticise them and Capitalist when a Capitalist wants to praise or excuse them.

No, they are always capitalistic: all of them are in favor of private ownership and market economies. I don't care what Bernie calls them.

> The abolishment of private property is Communist - not Socialist

This is false. But I'm really curious, what is your definition of socialism?

> what is your definition of socialism?

This is the probably the best point to start from when discussing Socialism. So it was the point I started with:

"Socialism is about how workers organise their workplace (owning, managing and sharing the produce and profit of their labour)"

As the Oxford Dictionary says:

"a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole."

So Socialism is something very specific, but Socialists often associate themselves with other principles that they believe are in line with their moral values, see as a helpful strategy for achieving their ideals, or their Socialism is part of a larger political philosophy (Communism etc.) This association (and some detractors using the word Socialism to define everything they don't like) are what lead to confusion.

Socialists joke that detractors believe "Socialism is when the government does stuff, and the more stuff it does the more Socialist (or Communist) it is." But some commentators - see current popular right-wing American opinion pieces - really do seem to believe this.

There is no mention of state, government or rulers of any kind in most definitions of Socialism (most Anarchists are Socialists too). Of course some Socialists have believed that the state can act in the interest of the public by being stewards over these resources with the ideal of later devolving this to the communities and workers. Which has led to State Socialism (which Lenin called State Capitalism) on the one hand, and Social Democracy on the other. Some (like myself) think both strategies are flawed as do non-hierarchal Socialists (Anarcho-Communists, Syndicalists, Libertarian & Council Marxists, Democratic Confederalists, and maybe Agorists etc.)

There is also no mention of private - non-personal - property (although some Socialists like myself are against that too, but other Socialists see the issue as an irrelevance or inevitability).

Some see Socialism as sufficient in itself, others see it as part of the progress toward Communism (stateless, classless, moneyless as stated before).

Do you have a different definition of Socialism?

According to these definitions, what is the difference between capitalistic US and socialistic Norway? Both allow social ownership of means of production, but they don't forbid private ownership.

> Socialists joke that detractors believe "Socialism is when the government does stuff, and the more stuff it does the more Socialist (or Communist) it is." But some commentators - see current popular right-wing American opinion pieces - really do seem to believe this.

By your own words, the difference between socialist Norway and capitalist US is universal healthcare, housing, pensions... government does stuff!

You are laughing at caricature capitalists, but don't you see that you are a caricature socialist? Norway is socialistic when it suits you, even though it contradicts your own definition of socialism.

> So Socialism is something very specific, but Socialists often associate themselves with other principles that they believe are in line with their moral values

If KKK starts preaching green energy, no one will listen to them. If you really want to achieve social policies similar to nordic countries, stop mixing them with your harmful political ideology. Nobody wants universal healthcare if it comes with famine caused by central planning.

> Do you have a different definition of Socialism?

Yours is fine, except that it is impractical - it doesn't draw the line anywhere. It doesn't define socialism, it describes it. How do I tell whether state is capitalist or socialist? Can it be both?

Given that socialists aren't happy with freedom to practice socialism they have right now, my pragmatic definition is that socialism is a state in which social ownership of means of production is enforced, meaning private ownership is banned. Most socialists seem to defend such policies.

You are right that Socialism is a broad word and Socialism is a broad tent. I tend to personally use it more narrowly than some Socialists, but acknowledge that others consider universal social policies or co-operatives as at least partial Socialism, or part of an effort towards it.

It doesn't suit me that Norway isn't fully Socialist. I'm glad that some policies started by Socialists have been implemented that offer some relief from the worst economic injustices of Capitalism, but I don't think it is sufficient or goes anywhere near far enough.

I agree that those seeking to introduce universal social programmes in America could use some better strategies. For example pointing out that Americans already pay twice toward healthcare in taxes as what Canadians do (3 x what some Europeans do), but are getting nothing in return for their high taxes most of their lives (if they don't qualify for medicare / medicaid or pay for exorbitant insurance on top of their taxes). But the right has done a good job of labelling any universal benefit - even if it saves people money - as Socialism, so maybe it is an unescapable label.

The United States has it's own social welfare programs. Some of which can be traced back to American Socialists. But I'd say the biggest of welfare program these days by expenditure is the American military, followed by corporate welfare in various forms (subsidies, overlooking tax evasion, government contracts, paying for externalities by taxation). It would be a stretch to call these Socialist, but they are definitely the government doing stuff, and I reckon have a lot in common with Lenin's state capitalism or even Mussolini's corporate fascism in my eyes.

Having said that Americans with a positive view of Capitalism has been going down, and a positive view of Socialism has been going up (especially among younger people). This seems to be true across most of Europe too, where it has never been as dirty a word as it is in the U.S.

Capitalism also suffers from the same broadness. I'd argue it only means "an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit." But many people who aren't private owners of industry consider themselves Capitalists because they work for wages, have a house, and go shopping for things.

I'll admit that people calling themselves Socialists have done some pretty dumb things (bad crop planning, playing with missiles), especially in the early days, and a few so-called Socialists who sought for power and gained it abused it (Lenin and Mao). Capitalism has had it's share of major problems too (slavery and imperialism for example), and has had horrible dictators all of its own (Pinochet and Putin for example).

I would argue that when Socialism has failed it has been in trying to be more Capitalist (Lenin & Mao's biggest critics were Socialists and his harshest acts were against Socialists, and his worst acts were either against them or in response to trying to out-Capitalist the West). I'd also argue that Capitalism's biggest issues are inherent to Capitalism - see the Iron Law Of Oligarchy & overthrowing peaceful democratic countries for the benefits of corporations for example.

As for questions of state enforcement - maybe I associate with a different set of Socialists and maybe a different group are getting airtime here in Europe where I'm living right now, but I'm not hearing many people on the left speaking about enforcing state Socialism and banning much of anything. Most avowed Socialists parties here (which number millions of supporters this side of the pond) aren't arguing for this.

The most radical Socialists I know (Anarchists like me) don't want a state at all, and do want to see an end to the Capitalism that is being enforced at the moment, but I recognise I am in a minority, and offer solidarity in areas I can find agreement with other Socialists, with whom I may share some general ideals.