Good information! As I see it from my point of view:
Timelines:
Does anyone have any actual info on the Atlas timelines/waiting lists? I haven't seen a single success story/blog post discussing this. Atlas FAQ states 2 weeks to get up and running (tax ID and payment acceptance), but when asked about waiting time, their answer is "We don't have an exact timeline for adding new users, but we'd love to chat more about your use case".
e-Residency (from application to card delivery) should take 2-3 weeks. Not months.
Taxes:
The difference in the level of complexity of US vs Estonian tax rules can't be described in words :). That's why you will need the huge number of tax advisers/lawyers in US, and you'll pay them.
I'm not really sure any person, who's not a resident of US and is not living there, would benefit from having a body with tax residency there, if there aren't other compelling reasons. For example, you would do this if your funding source is coming from there, because funding is better than no funding, no matter the taxes.
Funding/holding:
US has a huge advantage here, clearly!
Transparency:
Estonia is playing for total transparency and an efficiency heaven. If you want to do shady offshore stuff, then this is not for you. #nopanamapapers
TL;DR: Starting and new VC funded startup or a big corporation -> US. Starting a one-man online business (and currently not a tax resident of US) -> Estonia!
> Does anyone have any actual info on the Atlas timelines/waiting lists?
Without Atlas you get a Delaware instantly from one of the many registries, Atlas is only needed if you want to get the bank account without going to US (something which Estonia can't provide yet (I learned in another reply from you))
> e-Residency (from application to card delivery) should take 2-3 weeks. Not months.
Check the forums, rarely people get it in few weeks
> The difference in the level of complexity of US vs Estonian tax rules can't be described in words :).
Do not agree. At the end of the day you need just one tax consultant. And one is enough also for the US. And they are easy to get in the US. And knowledge online is massive, check this for Estonia.
Besides, taxes can get quickly complicated and messy, especially if you are a resident in another country than your corporation. And because of your local tax regulations and not the one's from the country of the entity you need good tax people who are familiar with your country-of-entity-and-country-of-residency combination.
> Estonia is playing for total transparency and an efficiency heaven. If you want to do shady offshore stuff, then this is not for you. #nopanamapapers
Sorry but this is getting bold now. There're many totally legal use cases where a non-disclosure at the beginning is favorable. Still you can't do anything illegal, authorities will get you with an US corp as well, it's just about that with on Estonian OÜ everybody can google what you are doing.
> US. Starting a one-man online business (and currently not a tax resident of US) -> Estonia!
Sorry have to disagree here again. If you want to start an one-man-show then the Delaware LLC is more favorable, even easier than the C Corp. There are enough online resources giving further explanations.
I don't want to bash your ambitions and I like that Estonia is way more digital and advanced (or tries to) than other nations but I have still problems to see any added value.
> Check the forums, rarely people get it in few weeks
These posts are probably from summer of 2015 when the online ordering was launched and the operations didn't manage to keep up with the waiting list.
> Do not agree. At the end of the day you need just one tax consultant.
If you're running a one-man show, then the sum of costs matters a lot. Simpler framework -> less help needed -> less hours on the invoice -> money saved. I haven't ever needed a tax consultant for my own undertakings, but then again I'm an Estonian and I don't have the tax-residency-in-another-country angle. But as we are talking generally, without specific examples, then let's agree that:
1) one definitely needs to look into this subject before deciding on the best course of action when starting a business anywhere (do a total cost of ownership for the next 3 years, etc.),
2) this area needs modernization as more and more people are moving around the globe every year.
> Sorry but this is getting now bold.
My intention wasn't to imply that US is for shady offshore stuff. Or that offshore/nominee stuff needs to always be shady. I only wanted to say, that if you happen to be the guy wanting to do shady offshore stuff, then Estonia is not the place :).
> Sorry have to disagree here again.
Let's agree to disagree for now, and let's re-evaluate our opinions in a few years when these new programs have had a change to make their stand.
I see added value in exploring both Delaware and Estonia, especially if you're from a country in which online payment systems are very expensive to use, or difficult to acquire, for a small merchant, e.g. a startup.
Stripe and Braintree are really good options for merchants and may even have better fees than local options. For example, Braintree: 3.9% + 0.30 USD for accepting payments in your local currency using your estonian or american company.
Which of Delaware and Estonia fits better this use case?
1) law change for allowing bank account opening without physically coming to Estonia is in the government and should be in force by Autumn
2) our customers are successfully using different payment providers
3) LLC is the "de facto" incorporation type for our customers
4) Becoming an e-resident won't make you an Estonian tax resident, so you don't have to worry about your worldwide income. But when you start an Estonian company then the company finances/taxes have to be done by Estonian laws/rules.
5) Going to Estonia is like going to other European countries. You need transportation and a place to stay and you get them via normal means online :). Visa requirements depend on your real residency. Being an e-resident doesn't change this. For more info: http://www.visitestonia.com/en/
6) For physical coworking space, just google "coworking tallinn" or something similar. Should be plenty of spaces available. If you wan't to see the other end of Estonia, then "coworking tartu" :).
1) Yes, still have to see what the results are in terms of KYC etc. though.
3) What I mean is that they should allow companies to identify themselves as a LLC/Limited instead of a OÜ so your customers see "Webshop LLC" instead of "Webshop OÜ". While it might not be feasible to enact in Estonia, some jurisdictions do this.
5/6) It's not that I can't go to Estonia, it's that I won't because it's not very high up on my list. If it was cheap, easy and/or I had some special reason (like a conference, which there also are plenty of) that might move it higher, but I'm not going to go out of my way just to find out when there are plenty of other places on that list. Might sound harsh, but that is how it is.
That's the trick, all Estonian government services + all private services which benefit from strong authentication or authorization have implemented the ID-card log in and signature functionality to their services/apps/websites.
So whether I send 5€ to my mother, or I sell my car to a stranger on other side of the country, or I submit my yearly tax data, or I complete my 1 000 000 € M&A deal, I use my digital identity (PKI infrastructure) to sign the transaction.
The physical ID-card itself is not the most user friendly token in this Estonian infrastructure (requires the reader + op system drivers/soft). The alternative token is Mobile-ID, where the same PKI infrastructure is deployed onto my phone SIM card and I use my mobile device to authenticate / authorize my transactions. At the moment this only works with certified Estonian carriers but in 2016 the next generation of mobile support should make this channel usable over the whole world.
Don't get me wrong that's all good and well, but it's still 15 year old technology being implemented and not a paradigm shift. Most of the time you're still going to be typing in your e-mail, postal address and credit card number when doing things online. It's not like you swipe your card once for logging in to you computer and then when buying some service online to verify the setting up a subscription payment and having all your data at the provider encrypted with your identity.
For tax questions, there aren't simple answers that would apply for everybody. It depends on where do you have your personal tax residency, do you travel, your health care/insurance/pension situation, etc. The tax rules for people who live and work outside of Estonia (for most of the year) are simple on the Estonian side, but you have to include the rules on your person tax residency side also.
For a more personalized answer visit us at https://www.leapin.eu and send us an email please.
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