> Censorship of speech is not okay! No matter what!
If someone handed you a a stack of flyers and told you to post it everywhere, would it be ok to not do this and just throw it away? If someone on Facebook types in a message and hits post, would it not be acceptable for them to not send that data to anyone that connects to them, and instead just delete it?
> The algorithm may not be racist, but it is guaranteed to perpetuate our objectively racist policing of the past.
Depends on how the algorithm is formulated. If it's based on number of crimes found, by policeman, by hour, then this would eliminate that concern (vs just number of crimes per hour).
> However it can prevent people with "different views" from evangelizing effectively. Look at the anti-vaxers, "chem trails", or 5G conspiracy theorists: the majority of these paranoiacs didn't independently arrive at these theories.
That's throwing out the baby with the bathwater. If everytime someone tries to blow the whistle on something, they are called a conspiracy theorist and allowed to be censored, you are basically giving the people in charge infinite power and zero accountability.
Yes, exactly ! I remember traveling through Asia and seeing a “no durians” sign posted near the metro entrance. I forget the country, but it was probably Singapore or HK.
> The difference is hundreds of years of slavery and institutional discrimination specifically target toward blacks and all the accompanying cultural baggage. Part of that baggage is a deeply ingrained suggestion that black people are intellectually inferior but innately athletic.
How can you say this with complete certainty? How could you ever be sure?
That's kind of a non-response isn't it? The way things are is always determined by the events that came before. It doesn't mean you've correctly identified the right events.
I think it's easy to point at something like slavery as the underlying cause, but Europeans had no issue looking down on blacks before they had the idea to import them to the new world as slaves, and Europe adopted similar attitudes toward blacks with no slaves present.
> That's kind of a non-response isn't it? The way things are is always determined by the events that came before. It doesn't mean you've correctly identified the right events.
Then name the events.
I happen to think that slavery shaped American culture and American history. I find it improbable that a country would have race-based chattel slavery for several centuries but no significant cultural baggage. If that were the case, why then did the South fight Reconstruction? What was the purpose of Jim Crow? Those were concerted efforts to undermine the freedom of black people in particular. If there were no baggage, why didn't everyone just let bygones be bygones?
> Europeans had no issue looking down on blacks before they had the idea to import them to the new world as slaves
Even if that were true, it would not negate my claim. Europeans could have generally "looked down on blacks" before and then created specific slavery-justifying stereotypes about blacks as slavery became profitable.
> Europe adopted similar attitudes toward blacks with no slaves present
There were slaves in Europe. In fact, the British empire didn't abolish slavery until 1833. But even if there weren't slaves in Europe, that would not have precluded intercultural transmission of negative stereotypes about black people. There was little black slavery in Asia, but you'll find many of the same stereotypes about black people there. Countries don't exist in a vacuum.
I didn't claim to know the answer, just that your claims lacked support.
Of course slavery shaped American history, and thus its culture, but step back and imagine it never happened. Let's say the first blacks arrived in the US in 1990.
I'd still expect a similar level of racism toward blacks, because that's true globally. Even people in somewhere like rural China who have never met a black person are likely to look down on them.
Some of the Southern goofiness would be gone like you point out, but overall I'd unfortunately expect a remarkable similar situation.
Where is your evidence? I think the null hypotheses, i.e. we don't know, is more probable then what a appears to be an unsubstantiated conclusion that you wrote.
Ahh yes, the good ol' "how you dress", "how you carry yourself", "your personal hygiene", "how you talk" or one of the other hundred responses I get from people immediately when I talk about the unfair treatment I've seen in my life. All I can say is no it has nothing to do with how I dress, because half of those "random checks" were during my business trips when I worked for a major consulting firm. So I doubt my suit and tie had anything to do with it.
You might be suffering from confirmation bias. You have a forgone conclusion (it's all due to racism), so you see racism everywhere.
It's just really farfetched that all black people are being frisked at airports as much as you are, simply because they're black.
Maybe it could be your face matches some known terrorist or something. Or maybe you're flying out of the same airport a
lot and the staff has it out for you for some reason. Who knows?
I feel based on your arguments, it is you who has more of a confirmation bias. In your opinion, the probability of my face matching a terrorist or that the airport staff has it out for me is higher than a simple "people can be racist". You are just convinced that people just cry racism for no reason.
You are being downvoted because this is a soft form of victim blaming [1]. As tone and context are difficult to transmit in such a short reply, it might be a good idea to phrase things in a more empathetic way in the future.
And for the record, no, no this isn't because of how they dress.
I disagree with the premise of “victim blaming”. If we can't look at all sides of an issue for fear of being publicly shamed for going against a narrative, we'll end up with wrong conclusions a lot of the time.
I did acknowledge racism could also play a part, but I don't see how we are supposed to be able to accept that one can read the minds of those that affront him.
I also don't give a damn about the “monkey no like, hit 'you are bad' button” people seem to care about.
Well to honest your post was the textbook definition of victim blaming. It was hardly a "premise." With absolutely zero evidence you flat out accused them of wrong behavior (dressing wrong, acting wrong) instead of considering their situation on the facts they presented. That is victim blaming.
But now you try turn the tables around. Your feelings are so important. Painting yourself as the victim is the all-too-predictable next step in that logical chain. Congratulations on making this all about you.
Instead of being pissed off and trying to fire another salvo to get other people pissed off and concerned about you, you should try to listen to people instead. You came out of the gate with the over the top with "your lived experience is invalid, here is my completely context-free flat denial that anything is wrong, I don't want to hear what you are saying". This whole chain originated out of your lack of empathy, and here now we completely forgot about the people who are actually victimized.
> Well to honest your post was the textbook definition of victim blaming. It was hardly a "premise." With absolutely zero evidence you flat out accused them of wrong behavior (dressing wrong, acting wrong) instead of considering their situation on the facts they presented. That is victim blaming.
I didn't accuse, I simply asked a question. How are you so sure that it must be racism? Why are you trying to shame me for suggesting there might be another explanation?
> But now you try turn the tables around. Your feelings are so important. Painting yourself as the victim is the all-too-predictable next step in that logical chain. Congratulations on making this all about you.
When did I ever say anything about my feelings whatsoever? Can you at least quote me when you attribute motives?
> Instead of being pissed off and trying to fire another salvo to get other people pissed off and concerned about you, you should try to listen to people instead. You came out of the gate with the over the top with "your lived experience is invalid, here is my completely context-free flat denial that anything is wrong, I don't want to hear what you are saying". This whole chain originated out of your lack of empathy, and here now we completely forgot about the people who are actually victimized.
Empathy is not the same as agreeing with him as to what caused his situation. You are adding a lot of emotional context in what I say, which isn't present.
I'm just trying to get people to stop jumping to conclusions everytime that everyone is racist. Undoubtedly some people are, but you're immediately jumping to the conclusion that everyone is without evidence.
Yeah, in exactly the kind of snooty passive-aggressive way that climate-deniers are just "asking questions". I didn't want to come out all hot at you and gently encouraged you to consider having more empathy, but here we are, down a spiral of your increasing defensiveness and hostility. This is now totally about how you feel slighted for being challenged on your victim-blaming.
> Empathy is not the same as agreeing with him
It's clear that you don't agree with this person and already have pre-formed judgments, and that constantly surfaces as outright incredulity. It's difficult for you to process how infuriating that is for minorities who do experience racism to have to fight their way through a lack of shared experience and a wall of denial masquerading as "asking questions". Asking questions isn't "listening", it's just pushback. Racism is real. Listen to people to experience it.
> I'm just trying to get people to stop jumping to conclusions
Please, could you just let people who are close to the situation talk instead of putting yourself in there and muddying the waters?
> Yeah, in exactly the kind of snooty passive-aggressive way that climate-deniers are just "asking questions". I didn't want to come out all hot at you and gently encouraged you to consider having more empathy, but here we are, down a spiral of your increasing defensiveness and hostility. This is now totally about how you feel slighted for being challenged on your victim-blaming.
Will you listen to yourself? You're creating this enormous fiction out of a few innocent questions. I even said it could also be racism.
> It's clear that you don't agree with this person and already have pre-formed judgments, and that constantly surfaces as outright incredulity. It's difficult for you to process how infuriating that is for minorities who do experience racism to have to fight their way through a lack of shared experience and a wall of denial masquerading as "asking questions". Asking questions isn't "listening", it's just pushback. Racism is real. Listen to people to experience it.
All I wanted was some more information. Yes, it does sound kind of odd, doesn't it? Aren't there a lot of black fliers around? Does it really happen that they are being frisked that much? Maybe he's flying out of one airport much of the time and the staff doesn't like him for some reason.
> Please, could you just let people who are close to the situation talk instead of putting yourself in there and muddying the waters?
I'm not stopping anyone from talking. I just put forth my point of view, same as anyone else. Why are you so upset about me sharing my thoughts?
Is this really all that serious anyway? I've been frisked, too, multiple times. Why does it have to become some giant emotional cryfest?
> Did you ever think it might be the way you dress or your demeanor?
This is what you wrote. "Did you ever think" is a hell of a way to start a polite conversation. It's a condescending, accusatory and downright shitty way to basically call a person an idiot and completely invalidate what they are trying to tell you.
I mean, it could be just fine....but how could I know that?
You see how absolutely rude it is to talk to people like that? Can you imagine if your TV got stolen and you went to the police and the first question out of their mouth was not about the facts of the case, not things like, "When did you first notice it missing? What kind of TV was it? How long have you had this TV? Has anyone suspicious been around your place?"...but not those questions, but the cops came up with a completely alternate, dismissive theory like "Have you ever considered that maybe you never owned a TV at all? I mean, it could be burglary, but how could you know that? Next!" You'd be apoplectic, because that is not asking questions, it's downright incredulity.
People who experience racism get gaslighted like this all the time. But of course you don't want to understand the emotional context and frustration of those people, you want to "ask questions" and find a way out of your emotional discomfort as quickly as possible. Jumping in like this makes nothing better. Nothing. Like I said three times already, Listen to people who experience racism.
> This is what you wrote. "Did you ever think" is a hell of a way to start a polite conversation. It's a condescending, accusatory and downright shitty way to basically call a person an idiot and completely invalidate what they are trying to tell you.
No it's not. It's just an expression, it means none of those things. And yes, I think maybe he could be misinterpreting things. Is that really so bad? Pardon the expression, but everyone's shit stinks, no one is God, and infallible.
> You see how absolutely rude it is to talk to people like that? Can you imagine if your TV got stolen and you went to the police and the first question out of their mouth was not about the facts of the case, not things like, "When did you first notice it missing? What kind of TV was it? How long have you had this TV? Has anyone suspicious been around your place?"...but not those questions, but the cops came up with a completely alternate, dismissive theory like "Have you ever considered that maybe you never owned a TV at all? I mean, it could be burglary, but how could you know that? Next!" You'd be apoplectic, because that is not asking questions, it's downright incredulity.
That's really not like this at all... He's just being frisked a lot. Could be for a lot of reasons.
> People who experience racism get gaslighted like this all the time. But of course you don't want to understand the emotional context and frustration of those people, you want to "ask questions" and find a way out of your emotional discomfort as quickly as possible. Jumping in like this makes nothing better. Nothing. Like I said three times already, Listen to people who experience racism.
I think the parent is saying that Facebook could have been lying about the exploit being patched away, in order to keep the exploit available and have an excuse as to why they didn't reveal how they did it.
If someone handed you a a stack of flyers and told you to post it everywhere, would it be ok to not do this and just throw it away? If someone on Facebook types in a message and hits post, would it not be acceptable for them to not send that data to anyone that connects to them, and instead just delete it?