In Europe software companies are more like factories. You punch in, work like a slave all day, then punch out. The socialist mindset created retarded managers. So anything deviating from the standard factory setup is seen as depravity. Europeans don't understand technology. For them software development is like manual labor. Get some monkeys, throw them some peanuts and use a whip to make them do stuff.
Overall, remote working in Europe is mostly done for US companies. EU companies are usually mentally disabled.
That's weird thing to say, I guess no replies from guys in UK (London & rest of the country).
It's similar for Netherlands and I know (from my experience) in Germany (Berlin).
'In Europe software companies are more like factories. You punch in, work like a slave all day, then punch out.'
> again not sure which countries you speak about (ukraine or romania lol?), maybe it's like that in some, but some have very relaxed attitude
'Overall, remote working in Europe is mostly done for US companies. EU companies are usually mentally disabled.'
> again, there're tons of EU based remote work, and I just won't comment on the rest of this generalisation.
I've got a nice remote offers from Spain and Netherlands as we, despite being in UK. I'm getting them all the time.
So just to top the thing about working like a slave all day...
- my EU company gives me remote because I do work better in this mode,
- my EU company gives me a lot of benefits that guys in US don't see (despite that average salary I'd say is lower in here),
- basically it's yet another EU company that hires me and gives me total freedom because I deliver
i.e. if you're good you will always find a remote job with conditions you want.
btw. your comment shows your ignorance and nothing more (and a lack of ability to produce some facts instead of meaningless offences)
'EU companies are usually mentally disabled.' - seriously? you work for some1 or you're building your own 'empire' with this kind of attitude and beliefs?
'ukraine or romania lol?' - it's interesting to see that you typed Ukraine and Romania in lowercase while others (Spain, Netherlands, US) in uppercase, but let's skip it for now.
I really wonder what your assumptions about working environments in Ukraine and Romania are based on? Have you ever worked in any of the countries? Do you feel like people there are somehow worse than people in the UK? Or that Ukrainian/Romanian developers are more "slaves" than you?
'again not sure which countries you speak about (ukraine or romania lol?), maybe it's like that in some, but some have very relaxed attitude' >
I'm talking about Western Europe. Mostly Germany, Netherlands, UK and Scandinavia. I was referring to office jobs, not remote.
Eastern Europe is actually pretty great because it has an American influence. No stupid EU brainwashing. Only capitalism. Also, your tone about Ukraine and Romania is condescending. Not very nice.
'again, there're tons of EU based remote work, and I just won't comment on the rest of this generalisation.' >
It's low quality. Basically, remote work in Europe means "Let's find some third-world slaves that will work for cheap.". They offer remote because they don't want to pay the high salaries in their own countries.
I've got a nice remote offers from Spain and Netherlands as we, despite being in UK. I'm getting them all the time.' >
I get these offers all the time. And they all offer average salaries. They search in other countries because they are trying to find cheap slaves.
'my EU company gives me a lot of benefits that guys in US don't see (despite that average salary I'd say is lower in here)' >
Your mistake was accepting the lower salary. But it's understandable since you don't seem to be familiar with how things actually work.
Just to give you an idea, I work in Eastern Europe. And the equivalent salary in UK to maintain my quality of life would be about 150k GBP. I'm happy that you're happy. But I'm pretty sure you're concentrating too much on the silver lining.
I worked for European companies. And I worked for American companies with branches in Europe. And American companies are simply on another level. They might suck in the US, but they don't when they come to Europe.
I'll just mention one thing, maybe that's not important for you - US maternity law, come on... it's a joke ;) all of this stuff is way in favour in most countries of Europe.
btw. I like my free days, I like a lot the extra ones (not the ones that companies are obligated to) if you work for good company.
time is precious so a lot of companies are very flexible, in here it's nothing new & nothing uncommon to do 4 days instead 5 etc. or change any day with any weekend day if you please.
I think you drank too much of the kool-aid. You're very happy about things that are normal in Europe. And you are willing to be underpaid to get them. You don't have to be. You can get a good salary and the benefits too. It's funny how you're fighting the guys that want this to happen.
Not all the retarded managers are socialists, and not all managers are retarded. Do you have free universal medical care for all citizens yet?
> Europeans don't understand technology
Not a single european country in the list of the five most polluting countries in the planet. Congratulations to USA for ranking again in the second place after China.
'Except in holidays' > Nice straw man. All day doesn't mean every day.
'Do you have free universal medical care for all citizens yet?' > Yes, I live in Europe.
'Not a single european country in the list of the five most polluting countries in the planet' > You are very good at building these straw men. Not sure what understanding technology has to do with pollution.
Are you talking from experience or just out of your arse? I know plenty of EU software companies and while there is certainly some variation none of them is like the cliché you're painting.
It's like saying every US software company is like 70s / 80s era IBM (which used to be pretty much like what you're describing).
Large companies sometimes have regulations around (limited) home working, but those who do it are looked at with suspicion from everyone else and only the very senior seniors dare to use it.
WTF? Admittedly I've only worked in Scandinavia, but that doesn't sound right at all. Every job I've worked at (from small startups to multinational engineering firms) has been extremely flexible when it comes to working hours and taking time off and I've never seen a manager come even halfway close to to being anywhere near as bad as the stories I hear about American managers here on HN.
Sounds pretty accurate for a business-oriented role. Didn't have the same experience in the engineering teams. Maybe I found only shitty companies. Maybe it's just the role itself.
For example, everybody says "there are better companies out there". But all of them seem to be the same. And it's more of a gamble on the position. Find a good team and the company is great. Find a bad team in the same company and the company sucks. Maybe you got lucky and I didn't. Hence the different perspectives.
Obviously all companies are different, and perhaps the best companies in the US treat their best workers better than the best companies in Europe. But equally all the working condition horror stories I've heard from the US completely dwarf anything I've ever seen or heard of in Europe.
Do you think the pay is really that bad? As a dev working in Holland I've got the feeling it's at the top end for Europe. I certainly never heard that cost of living adjusted salaries are significantly higher in eastern europe.
I'm guessing here but it could simply be that any moderated forum is effectively censored, HN included.
In my experience almost all dead comments I've seen deserve to be dead.
Down votes are more hit and miss I find it depends on the crowd that are attracted to that topic. E.g. Microsoft submits seem to be biased as pro Microsoft etc. That may be where the echo chamber effect comes in.
Yes. You would expect that only sites like facebook would do that. It seriously discredits Paul Graham and Y-Combinator. After dealing with Hacker News, who would ever want to trade with anything Paul Graham is involved with?
Looks like people don't like it when you criticize their idols. People forget Paul Graham is in the business of making money. Ethics and morality are not a prerequisite. They actually start getting in the way once you reach a certain level of fame.
Wait for a new idea. Each of us has very specific talents that others don't. If you can find yours, you can be the one building it better. It's all about maximizing efficiency. Ideas come and go. You don't have to jump on the first one to succeed. Just on the one that makes the most sense.
No, it's almost impossible without being a jerk. This personality trait is a requirement for succeeding.
And it's mostly because of the way capitalism works. Once you enter the market, you're automatically forced to turn a profit or get investments. If you don't, you die. Competition is also pretty fierce. You may choose to play by the rules, but others choose not to. So you can easily get killed.
Customers also become your worst enemy. They are forced by the market to buy cheap instead of good. So you're now in a race to the bottom. Plus, the entire market is volatile. Things can change almost instantly. One well targeted review or article can either make you or break you.
So when your entire success is built on a tower of cards, only by being ruthless can you make the climb. We could have had megabit internet 30 years ago. But instead we got AOL and Comcast. People can spin it any way they like. But in the end, actions talk louder than words.
>No, it's almost impossible without being a jerk. This personality trait is a requirement for succeeding.
Every successful person is a jerk?
>Customers also become your worst enemy. They are forced by the market to buy cheap instead of good.
Price is not the only metric by which people buy a product. There are a large amount of variables which play into a purchasing decision. Also, no one is forced. You choose what to purchase.
>So when your entire success is built on a tower of cards,
Another large and untrue generalisation.
>We could have had megabit internet 30 years ago. But instead we got AOL and Comcast.
I've never met an unsuccessful person that doesn't have skeletons in their closet.
This dystopian view of people ("... built their tower through shady deals ...") is sad, and untrue. On the backs of others? Of course--some people work for other people. We all stand on the shoulders of giants... and midgets.
>I have never met or heard of a successful person that doesn't have skeletons in his closet. Each and every one of them has built his tower either through shady deals or on the backs of others. On the other hand, I met a lot of middle-class people that obtained independence by themselves. There are no skeletons there. Only the scars of decades of stress and hard work.
You have met and/or heard of every successful person? Making a generalised blanked statement like this is unwise.
>Will you buy the $9.99 or the $10.00 product? You can spin marketing and psychological tactics all you want. It all boils down to perceived value vs cost.
Another more nuanced issue which you have attempted to over simplify. If all other things are equal, sure, price will be the deciding factor. But, all other things are never equal.
My best interviews were the ones where money wasn't an issue. They focused on getting talent first and dealing with bad hires later. So the process went like this:
- "I see you have done this and that, have some years of experience and seem to know how to do things. Here is what you would do in our company ..."
- "Still interested? Great. Can you please reverse a string?"
- "Well, looks like you can code. Let's talk salary."
- "Welcome aboard. :)"
Whenever someone turned out to be bad, they simply asked them to leave. Usually with severance. So easy and simple. I really can't understand why only a few companies work like this. No tests, no homework and definitely no hazing and grilling. Just some guys that want to build some stuff.
> I really can't understand why only a few companies work like this.
Highly dependent on the legislation the company is operating in. "At will" companies, if I understand the term correctly, certainly have that flexibility where they can let the bad hire goes. In other countries where firing is less flexible, more hoops needs to be jumped through.
I didn't say anything about firing. In Europe it's very hard to fire someone. But give them a stack of cash in exchange for pursuing other opportunities and almost everybody will take it. It's actually a common practice for non-tech jobs. Layoffs are not possible, but getting a year's salary for quitting is.
On "lack of quality in education:" do you see that as a new / increasing problem, or an extant one amplified by growing needs?
What would you consider to be an increase in quality of education? Achievement? Specific areas of focus? Increased universality / literacy / "bringing up the floor"?
How about intersections of this with the issue of cognitive development and theories of distribution of cognitive skills (e.g., Jean Piaget), or of impacts of early childhood development and environments (nutrition, pollution, nurturing, exposure and acculturation) to intellectual development?
Are you suggesting that social apps and the Internet of Things are a mis-placed priority? How or why?
If they are: then why do they seem to be such compelling objectives for business and technical interests? Are there any benefits resulting regardless?
It's the future. Crowdsourcing through job candidates.
I had a similar experience with a company in Berlin, Germany. They didn't care about the code or my skills. Only if the submitted solution worked against their existing tests.
I think it's just a sleazy way of getting things built for free. Basically, write only a test for the functionality you want. And give the actual task to job candidates. If someone succeeds, you have both the algorithm and its test for pennies. It's based on P = NP. Testing the result is easy. Designing a solution is the hard part.
I now refuse both technical interviews and take at home tests. Limits my choices a lot. But the ones that remain are usually top shelf.
Wait, you refuse technical interviews and you say the rest are top shelf? I'm curious to know what your ideal interview looks like. Or do you mean you just get hired through networking?
I've had a very similar experience to this commenter. I wouldn't say that I reject all technical interviews and take home tests, but I certainly reject a lot of them and find that I have little trouble finding really high quality companies that will speak with me. As you say, a lot of it comes through broad and deep networking. I know people, I have a proven track record in business and technology, and people are comfortable working with me.
An ideal interview is one where I get to learn as much about who I will be working with and what I will be doing as they will be learning about me. Generally these turn into more discussion based interviews where we talk about the issues the company is having and how I might be able to best solve them. They still get a good idea about how I think and work by discussing the problem back and forth. I also get to see how they think and work.
Frankly, I white board problems very well. But when companies ask me to do so in an interview I want to see them do it as well. I want to see their ability to code as much as they want to see mine. Same goes for a take home test. If we are going to work together and you have to see code of mine, I very much want to see yours to make sure it is up to my standards.
You would stand a good chance of waiting a lot longer to get that work done, but as mrcold said, testing a solution doesn't cost much. If you're willing to wait for the solution to a problem, getting work done through code exercises can be worth it.
Yea, I guess I was thinking more that it would take a lot of time to unnaturally break down a problem into portions small enough to pass as code exercises.
- Check glassdoor.com for reviews, interviews and salaries.
- Read a local version of glassdoor where employees talk about their former companies.
- Look at the company facebook account to see photos of the workplace and current employees.
- Search for forums and online communities where the company name is mentioned. Check the context and opinions.
- Research the CEO/CTO and potential supervisors on LinkedIn to determine competency and chemistry.
- Read articles and interviews about the company to gauge vision and the current state.
- Use the government public data to check company finances. In a software company wages are the biggest expense. So if you divide the yearly expenses by the number of employees, you can estimate an average salary.
This worked great so far. Dodged a lot of bullets and managed to get massive increases in pay. The tech industry would be a lot healthier if everybody shared information. Salary, reviews, what you like about the company, what you don't like. Post them everywhere you can. I do. Knowledge is power.
Overall, remote working in Europe is mostly done for US companies. EU companies are usually mentally disabled.